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What They Are Saying: The Scott Kazmir Trade
Scott Kazmir August 31st. 2009, 9:30amThe Rays tried to bury the news of the Scott Kazmir trade by waiting until 10:00 on Friday night before making the deal official.Now it is Monday, Kazmir is still traded, many fans are still angry and a lot of people have had something to say about the deal. Let’s take a look at what has been written within the interwebs.
A special Scott Kazmir Trade Webtopia…
- We presented our breakdown of the Scott Kazmir trade on Saturday. We will add one comment now: Try to separate any attachment you have to Scott Kazmir. If Kazmir had posted his 2008 and 2009 numbers with the Angels, would you be excited about the deal if the Rays were giving up 3 good prospects for Kazmir? We wouldn’t be, but maybe you would be. [Rays Index]
- Nobody had Scott Kazmir in the 2009 Trade Pool. [2009 Trade Pool]
- Both the Rays and Red Sox shuffled their rotations for the series opener on Tuesday. The Red Sox will go with Jon Lester. The Rays will go with Andy Sonnanstine. Seems fair.
- Scott Kazmir will make his debut with the Angels on Wednesday.
- Joe Smith examines the legacy that Scott Kazmir leaves behind. [St. Pete Times]
- Halos Heaven believes the Player to be Named Later is Jordan Walden…While it is certainly possible, their reasoning is flawed. They believe that the reason the PTBNL has not been named is because that player is on the DL. Actually it is much more likely that the PTBNL is on the Angels’ 40-man roster and not likely to clear waivers. [Halos Heaven]
- Marc Topkin writes that the timing of the Scott Kazmir deal “couldn’t have been better,” noting that after the season, more teams may have been interested, but they would have been less motivated. [St. Pete Times]
- Marc Lancaster does not comment on the timing of the deal, but does say the Rays had to cut payroll and Scott Kazmir was the best option. [Tampa Tribune]
- Keith Law of ESPN says the Rays got a very good prospect in Matt Sweeney and the entire package is a “tremendous return” for Scott Kazmir. [ESPN]
- Tom Verducci of SI.com says Scott Kazmir is a risk the Angels could afford and that trading Kazmir was just a matter of “when.” [SI.com]
- Buster Olney of ESPN says that it was “the smart play to move him now,” noting that the Rays just couldn’t afford to keep Scott Kazmir. He also notes that Kazmir’s numbers are very similar to Nolan Ryan’s at the same age. [ESPN]
- Rob Neyer of ESPN.com says it is not fair to call the deal a straight salary dump, but that the deal was “largely about the money.” [ESPN]
- The Rays Party offers a thorough and even-handed analysis of the trade, and offers a couple of names that could be the PTBNL. [The Rays Party]
- The Rays Party also offers an expanded list of prospects they would like to be the PTBNL. [The Rays Party]
- Rays Revolutionary was more than a little upset about the deal. [Rays Revolutionary]
- Later, Rays Revolutionary said the Rays are “the same team they always were,” and that they are more worried about the budget than winning. [Rays Revolutionary]
- Rays all Day says it is too early to pick a winner and loser in this deal, but the timing of the trade “seems curious.” [Rays All Day]
- Rays all Day has also collected some quotes from several Rays and Angels about the trade. [Rays All Day]
- Evan Brunnell of The Hardball Times says Scott Kazmir is still very capable of being an Ace. [The Hardball Times]
- Dock of the Rays says the deal does not hurt the Rays playoff chances as much as many people believe. [Dock of the Rays]
- Rays the Stakes says the deal looks like a smart move. [Rays the Stakes]
- Martin Fennelly calls Scott Kazmir, “the Ace who never was.” [Tampa Tribune]
http://raysrev.blogspot.com/2009/08/bye-bye-scotty-bye-bye-season.html
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If you want further proof that the Rays threw in the towel, look no further than Tuesday’s starting pitchers. The Red Sox rearranged their rotation so the Rays would get Lester, Beckett,and Buckholtz. The Rays ship off one of their pitchers for 3 prospects and replace him with a guy who’s been shelled all year. Good move, guys!
Yeah, I guess I’m still bitter. This is going to sting for a long time.
Sonny has been very good against the Red Sox in his career. And honestly you expect Kazmir to be any better??
After a weekend to ponder the trade, I had the following thoughts:
1. How many times is this team going to be 3.5 out of the wild card with a month to go? To give up on a hot Kazmir with your biggest homestand of the year coming seems really odd for a franchise that was never close to .500 in its first 10 years. Carpe diem. To be this close doesn’t happen every year.
2. The realtive position when the trade was first attempted (late July) was even better. Management was ready to light the torch on the defending AL Champions in late-July when they were still close in the division and the wild card. (I acknowledge that at that time, getting a laboring Kazmir out of the rotation might have seemed like addition by subtraction, but I don’t think the players view it that way).
3. The message this sends the remaining players is kind of devastating. Most national reports described Kazmir as being under control for 3 years with a “manageable contract”. Yes he’s been terrible for 11 of the last 12 months; but maybe he had it figured out. Now, whenever a cornerstone player starts to struggle, he better watch his back because the bean-counters will declare you under performing and ship you out.
4. I will say again — whoever is making up the payroll numbers needs to be challenged by the press or blogosphere. You draw 2.0 million fans, you have no “dead money”, you get $20M (more?) in revenue sharing from the league, your TV ratings are through the roof, why in the good lord’s name do you have to only spend $65M or less? How much profit is generated from that $65M payroll? Invest in the team or get out of the game. No way anybody should give them a dime of public money if the private investment has been shut off because the ownership group is broke, or the minority partners are demanding a $65M budget (the dead hand of Naimoli?).
I can appreciate many of your points here, Gus, but I have to take exception to the idea that this trade has a “devastating impact” on other players. It’s not as though Kazmir had been carrying the team and now he’s been traded. He has what, by Rays standards, is a very big contract, and there have been questions all year about whether he could ever be the ace pitcher that contract implied he would be. (And his might be a manageable contract to a bigger market team, but on the Rays it’s a pretty big chunk of the payroll).
If the impact on other players is “gosh, if I don’t live up to my salary I might get traded,” then I don’t see that as a bad thing!
I agree with your point that it might not be all bad that the players know if they under-perform, they are on the next flight out. That said, trading your No. 4 starter to your likely opening round opponent should you make the playoffs in the middle of a pennant race and getting nothing but salary relief and some minor leaguers is not good for morale in that locker room. I think the quotes from Friday night illustrate that. (BJ’s great “I’ve got nothing” quote works on so many levels). It is a sign that managment values its $ over championships for this year. I understand it may be a good business move, but it is a bad baseball move for this season.
It is confirmation that the Rays are not so different from the Marlins. The Rays had a good vibe going for the last 24 months or so. That is over now. Business is business. From a business side, it may turn out to be a great deal to get out from the crummy contract the Rays’ braintrust gave him just last year. But the players don’t operate that way, and fans don’t either.
As a final point — by all accounts the Rays handled this dreadfully, going back to late July when it was heavilly rumored and nobody told Kaz anything. Having your best pitcher in franchise history hear he’s being dumped for $ reasons from the press stinks. Making him sit through a game with him and the team not knowing what’s going on (when we all knew) stinks further. I think Fennelly’s column referenced how bush this was. Again, not a way to get the lads to grind it out for the pennant.
I hope Sonny pitches well tomorrow night, but a bombing of him in such a critical game will just underscore the point that management took apart the defending AL champs while they still had a slight chance to defend their title. Putting away all the metrics and the financials, that stinks at a sporting level and a human level.
As someone who watches the Quakes, the high A team where Matt Sweeney has played this year, I can report that on a fairly average team Matt is clearly the top player. Beyond Sweeney, I can’t think of a single Quake player that has much value.
While Sweeney is no Longoria (both play 3rd), he might end up being a good 4 corner player since he both has patience at the plate and a fair amount of pop in the bat.
See: http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=t526&t=p_pbp&pid=502575
for more details.
Sweeney will come handy when Longo has a down year in 2011 and the suits decide to trade him for a few other 19 year olds.
Kazmir is gone….
We get to keep CC, maybe even Aki, W. Davis (maybe better than Kaz)
gets to pitch and ready to be our 3rd rookie star…
Things are good with player personnel…now if we just had a few coaches…That is….. manager, pitching and hitting!
The general consensus seems to be that the PTBNL is Sean Rodriguez. This makes is a very nice trade for the Rays.
So, dumb question here, if the expansion guys are brought up tomorrow, are they eligible for the post season?????
1) Playoff rosters shrink again for the postseason.
2) Yes … David Price was one of the call-ups last year.
Yeah, and that’s why last year they included some callups in the post season roster (e.g. Price) but excluded some other players (e.g. Gomes, Percival).
Technically, only players that are on active roster or on the DL are eligible for post-season play. However, there is a loop-hole that says anybody that is on the 60-day DL can be replaced in that pool of available players anytime up to the playoffs. Right now, I believe Izzy and Percy are only players on 60-day DL. So, of the players called up in September, 2 of them could potentially be added to the post-season roster. This was how Price was eligible last yr. Off the top of my head, Hernandez may have also used this loop-hole last year. Can’t remember his exact call-up date.
Your first bullet point, where you summarize your earlier post, is 100 percent spot-on. I am concerned about the time of night it was officially announced, and I’m now less concerned about the time of year that this was pulled off (considering some of the links agree with that).
In general, I’m good with Sonny coming up because of their explanation that he does have experience in a playoff run. But then I think about David Price. And I’m really concerend that the Sox shuffled their line-up for the kill, while Rays shuffled their lineup …. differently. (Shouldn’t Shields have gone tomorrow? Maybe? Just sayin’)
Except….given the inconsistency of Rays starters, just who would we shuffle the line-up to get? The time they shifted starters to give Shields an extra start he was awful…and I don’t think his performance in his last few starts or really most of the post-all star break period has been great. There’s no starter who has been THAT strong over enough starts this year to make me say “that’s our ace; that’s who we need to have on the mound.” Doesn’t bode well, if you think about it, for any postseason play…but we’ll cross that bridge if and when….